Episode 2
This second full episode features a live radio interview I conducted in 1981 with death and dying pioneer Dr. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross. The episode begins with an overview of the remarkable life of the late Swiss-American psychiatrist, and the enormous impact her lifework has had on how the medical world and the public at large view and treat the dying process. Hospice, palliative care, end-of-life studies, dying with dignity – we owe a great debt to Kübler-Ross for what we now take for granted as the ideal model.
In our 25-minute conversation, we covered a wide range of subjects related to death and dying: what happens at the moment of death; Elisabeth’s convictions about life after death; children and death; working with parents who have lost children in violent incidents. We also talked about parenting and grandparenting, about unconditional love and child rearing.
After the interview, I offer some personal reflections on my own experience with death, and why we should take Kübler-Ross’ views seriously. I close with an invitation to join in an ongoing conversation centered around viewing the many critical problems we face today, individually and collectively, through the lens of Elisabeth Kübler-Ross’ “radically enlightened” views on death and dying.
Great podcast, Ron. Both your interview with Kubler-Ross in 1981 and your own comments and insights about death and dying before and after it were very thought-provoking and well-spoken. I found her words and yours comforting and hopeful. I hope you do more podcasts on the subject.
Thank you, Suzanne! So glad you found it worthwhile. Elisabeth was a beautiful soul, a force of nature. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to meet and talk to her.
What a well done thoughtful presentation, Ron. I loved hearing Elizabeth speaking so forthrightly in response to your excellent questions. It was a sincere exchange of ideas, a pleasure to listen to you both. And a trip down memory lane to hear your voice and your inquiries from 1981. Your reflections on death and dying were inspiring and I found the segment on grandparents and their unconditional love for grandchildren especially touching. Thanks so much for doing this. I look forward to more thought provoking conversations on Wisetalkers. Kudos!
Wow, thank you Eleanor. I’m so happy to know you got all that out of it. And yes, Elisabeth talking about grandparents was so good. I was moved as well.
Loved the interview with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. Makes me want to go back and reread On Death & Dying. What a gem! So glad you kept it safe all these years!
Great to hear you enjoyed it, Cathy! On Death and Dying is on my reading list, too. Right after I finish The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, by Sogyal Rinpoche.
Lots going on here Ron, definitely worth a relisten. First round through I get two takeaways: what we can learn from the dying, and our obligation to them. I think the former follows the latter. When we allow those “in extremis” to impinge on us we also open the door to the wisdom they might have to offer. By “locking” the suffering or those who might make us uncomfortable out of sight, we all lose. Not sure about the fear/suffering link as she states it…it gets close to blaming the victim but I see her point, we have a lot more control over both than we sometimes allow for.
In short, I think death and dying is an excellent lens by which to view seemingly intractable problems, personal and social, if for no other reason than imminent death, like any great crisis, can focus the mind and get to the truth of things. Death can wake us up to meaning, if we allow it. Above all, those of us privileged to be witnesses should at the least listen.
Thanks to younger Ron for the interview and older Ron for giving it new life!
And a lot going on in your astute comment, Paul! Very insightful. No doubt, death and dying is a rich topic to mine. I hope we can continue to shed more light on the profound fact of death, individually and collectively, than we seem naturally inclined to do.
I had the same reaction to Elisabeth’s “fear/suffering link” as you put it. It’s a difficult and complex dynamic to come to terms with.
And thank you for your thanks! – from both of us, the younger and older Rons :)
Beautiful interview, Ron. Elisabeth’s comments about what she believes happens at the moment of death were both profound and reassuring. She was a remarkable woman who had a deeply enlightening message. You did a great job of guiding the interview.
Thanks for hanging on to it for lo those many years!
Thank you, Karen! Yes, I’m so glad that I kept the tape, and that it was in good enough shape to digitize and process into pretty good quality after all these years. I was so fortunate to interview Elisabeth Kübler-Ross 43 years ago, and I feel that good fortune now more than ever. As I indicated in my epilogue, re-acquainting myself with and going more deeply into her wisdom is going to shape how Wise Talkers develops… not to mention how my own aging and inevitable death will unfold. :)
Such a great interview of a legend. Kübler-Ross was remarkable. All of your interviews are so timeless and thought-provoking. Thank you for making us wiser.
Thank you, LeeAnn! So glad you enjoyed the interview. Elisabeth was indeed a remarkable woman.
What a wonderful podcast Ron. Both the 1981 interview and your current day reflections and comments are rich and full of thought-provoking ideas and insights into, shall I say, the “ultimate” universal topic, one we all share in so many ways.
One of the things I found most intriguing and especially engaging was how articulate she was in discussing death and dying. It really gave me the sense that indeed her “expertise” on this vast topic is rooted in her having a genuine knowing of the death and dying experience. This alone made it truly a remarkable listening experience!
As others have said it’s so great that you’ve held onto the tape all these years and that you’ve taken on the task of resurrecting it for anyone to hear, hopefully gaining not only some new perspectives on the topic discussed but also hope.
Thank you, Beth. Yes, she describes death and dying so precisely. And as you say, she’s authentic and deeply experienced, and thus very convincing. Accepting her knowing as actual truth has profoundly beautiful and healing implications. Yet it’s so hard for so many of us to fully agree with this view of what happens at death and beyond. And even if we do ‘believe’ it, it’s still very difficult to integrate it into our day-to-day lives.